Well Paid Foster Moms - 1665

"...for 35 guilders a month..."- 1665

Women were often paid pretty well for their services. The two women below were paid 35 guilders a month - each - to wet nurse one of a pair of twin babies for one year.

1665 October 27th - "'Lenne' Roebers will, for one year, wet-nurse Kaste NOORMAN ’s child for 35 guilders a month; if the child dies, she will still be paid for the month in which it dies…Fiete Jansz will take care of the other child on the same condition"... and for the same pay as above is explained.

Another  example was of Geurt Kendrick's wife who received f.32 per month.  One more child was fostered for f.30 a month. 'Marytie' 'Claesen' receive f.25 (guilders) per month for keeping a school aged child, plus a one time payment of  f.4.14 in wages for sewing for the child, with the fabric being paid for by the church. These were not the only types of jobs open to women but it is a great example of how women who did not run taverns, shops or own ships were making money.

'Roebers" and 'Jansz'  earned in one year 420 guilders each, Kendrick earned 384 guilders, another earned 360 guilders and Claesen earned 300 guilders. Once the babies were weened the wage paid dropped little by little according to the work load associated with a more capable child.

The child kept by Marytie Claesen was attending school, with the school master being paid 17.8 guilders, but for an unknown duration. There are a number of payments going out to people we can use for comparisons. Mister Cornelis van 'Dijck' received 200 guilders a year from the church for heeling the sick. But this also assumes he took on personal clients.  Jan Peitersen was paid 5 guilders for 1 4/5 day's worth of mowing (grains). A Native American earned 10 guilders for diving into the water and finding a lost yawl from a ship, A man named Tobias was paid 2.10 guilders for a deer. 'Dirck' the mason for 10 days work at a chimney 10 guilders.

For Jan Peitersen, if he was earning roughly 1 guilder per day, that is about 20-24 guilders a month during harvesting. Harvesting occurs regularly due to rotating crops. 'Dirck' the Mason was earning about the same 10 guilders for 10 days work, which I assume was discounted for the church. In essence, women fostering children until they were about 14 years old which is when they were apprenticed in New Netherland and New York, means the ladies were earning a fair sum of cash in 1665 and 1666. However, the year is a problem... it was the first and second year that the English had gained control and pricing was probably not reflective of better times. But it gives us a good idea of what people were paid even under duress and limited economics.

Master Reyn received 18 guilders for repairing a ship's yawl and 15 guilders for building a (small) boat. Abraham Page the Englishmen received 12 guilders for 8 days of haying, and another 6 guilders for 4 more days of haying. A more consistent income to compare the fostering moms to is Ariaen the Servant who received "5 months wages at fl. 150 a year" 62 guilders. Except servants also had their room and board covered. Nevertheless even if we doubled the servants income to 300, it is at the low end of what a foster mom makes.

'Hubert' Jansen earned  8 guilders a year per person for doing their laundry. He would have to do a ton of laundry to make what a foster mom makes. However, he received a new contract which was 31 guilders a month to care for an old captain including board and laundry, or 372 a year. Another good example of ordinary people's income is a shoemaker's assistant which would be a contract for 2-3 years. In one instance an adult assistant in Albany was under contract for 10 shoes per day in summer.. possibly less in winter with shorter day time light ... received 120 guilders per year. Again, room, board, and laundry were included, but that is less than a servant and much less than a foster mom.

120 Shoemakers Assistant
150 Servant
200 Part time Doctoring for the church
300 Fostering school age child
372 Elder Care
384 Non-Nursing child under about 7
420 Wet nursing

So what did 300 to 420 guilders buy a person in the mid-1600s?

From the same 1665/1666 accounting book we can see the following recorded in guilders.

1 schepel of grain cost 7.10 [45 pound of wheat]
1 schepel of corn cost  6.0 [42 pounds of corn]
? "pumpkins" cost 6.0
2 schepels of rye cost 5.0
2 pounds of butter cost 3.0 [32 ounces]
2 pounds of fresh meat 1.8 [32 ounces] 

 1678 Albany (Supplemental data)

6 schepels of peas equals 1 beaver [= 8 guilders/6 schepels or 27 'stuivers'/schepel/45 pounds ] 

Note that: 1 schepel = 3/4 bushel. One bushel = 60 lbs. of wheat, 56 lbs. of shelf corn, 60 lbs dried peas. And a modern person eats between three to five pounds of food per day.

Let's say we bought 1 schepel of wheat, 1 of corn, 1 of peas, 2 lbs butter, and 2 pounds of fresh meat or 136 pounds of food. That would be 4 pounds of food per day for 31 days and it would cost about 21 guilders and 45 'stivers' or 23 guilders 5 'stivers'. With keeping in mind that carrots, lettuce, parsley, sage, turnips, apples, pears and cherries were items commonly grown in the yard. If roughly 2 pounds of food per person per day was coming from the yard, then the additional 4 pounds of food we purchased could bring a family of four to three pounds of food per person per day. It is on the low end, but hunting was common and meat was rather cheap at 2.10 guilders per deer. Especially considering the hide - even undressed - could be sold to offset the cost. Plus there were fishing poles and clam rakes. 

1665/1666

2 pounds of soap cost 2.10
1 pound of candles cost 2.5
a broom 0.12
Laundry Service for a year 8.0

Assuming we need soap and candles each moth and to budget for the mending or braking of household items we can add another 4 guilders 27 'stuivers', for 27 guilders and 32 'stivers' or  28 guilders 12 'stuivers'. Interestedly, regular laundry for one year cost 8 guilders, or 160 'stuivers' per year or 13 'stuivers' per month. Laundry services were common so let's add that in... 28 guilders 25  'stuivers' or 29 guilders 5 'stuivers'. 

Could you live on Foster Care Income? 

Foster care provided a considerable addition to the household income. Especially since the church would cover all clothing and education costs for the child. For the shoemaker's assistant, their room, board and laundry was included in their contracts with the 150 guilders a year being for clothing, tavern, savings and fun. Foster care could care for one person well enough assuming they rented a room for 8 guilders a year, or significantly raise the standard of living for a family of four, if there was another adult income. For a laborer who mowed wheat or the mason who was doing a lot of discounted work for churches, his wife's income could make a world of a difference. Assuming there was a typical Low Countries style garden, her income could keep the family fed and with candle light allowing his income to cover rent, clothing, and other goods or tools. A foster mom is essentially covering all the day to day cost of the family with room for some extras such as 2 pairs of shoes at 10 guilders, two new copper kettles at 16.16 plus a few extra left over.  Alternatively, she could order two new full sets of clothes (jacket, long sleeved under shirt, fabric breeches, leather breeches, shirt, drawers) for her own children at 36 guilders. 

Food, soap & candles = 29 guilders 5 'stivers'/month (348 guilders 60 'stivers' / year). 

300 Fostering school age child
372 Elder Care
384 Non-Nursing child under 7
420 Wet nursing

With this in mind, reenactors looking to portray "ordinary" people may take into consideration duel income families and other "hidden" cash flows not always obvious in history records like the selling of venison on the side. This would greatly affect the goods they could afford. For ordinary people of the Province, how to spend the extra cash would vary. One may choose to sleep on coarse linen but buy a Holland linen shirt, while they may have iron pans, they may pick up a few copper kettles or have serge suits as their best suit but always new shoes.


* If you see a mistake in my calculations let me know. I used a 20 'struiver' per guilder conversion rate. 

Below are some additional prices:

Other Goods: Note that "f." = guilder

In 1658 Jan Justen paid for 20 ells “coarse” linen f. 20, 4 pairs of shoes f.20, 5 pairs of stockings f.15, 20 ells of duffel f.80, 2 blankets f.32, 4 ells of cloth f.36, 2-1/2 ells of duffel f.20, “N.N.” 2 kettles 7 lbs f.16:16 

In 1661 sent to NewAmstel:
Nelis” “Laersen” 1 pair of stockings [guilders] 3.0 & 2 pairs of shoes [guilders] 10.0
Thomas “Hoppens” 1/2 alm anise (anis) [guilders] 140.0 & 3 ells red duffel [guilders] 3.0; “Baes” “Joosten” 1 large earthen jar f. 4 

Sold at Auction at Fort Orange 1666
a leather and a cloth breeches [guilders] 36.10.00
2 pr woolen stockings [guilders] 14.15.00

Cost of clothing children:

2 pairs of shoes for children 9.0
1/2 ell serge for [1] child's [2] caps 2.0
7 ells of linen for [1] child's shirts 15.0
3 ells of red baize 24.0
2 pairs of stockings 14.0
2 3/4 ell of blue linen for diapers 13.15

For a full set of clothing we have the following quote:

Frans Coninck’s children 2 packages of underclothes on which was used 5 ells of white baize…Frans 2 packages of leather clothes, on which were used 7 deer skins, 2 ells of Osnabruck, Frans a ape rock and a borstrock on which was used 3 ells of kersey at 12 guilders the ell…f.36.

Music & Instruments For All Ages

"2 transverse flutes" - 1700

The Following is a list of references for music from New York to the frontier. While not an exhaustive list of instruments in New York the following can show us that the region was not shying from music and dance. Parties were not unusual for the average person nor were balls for the politicos.

But this first inventory is interesting because we can see that even on the frontier of Schohary we can't do without culture, music and a good old time ! 

Nov 25th, 1773, Peter V. Ziellie
Late of Schohary in the County of Albany sold at Venue: 

1 Violine to Dennis Eckeser? 0:12:0

The above violin was sold for less than a pound in cash, making it more affordable than a suit, or even a jacket. Music as far as affordability goes was accessible. It is likely more so finding a teacher that would have prevented anyone from playing.



The 18th Century: From Organs and Spinets, to German Flutes and Bassoons: 

Mid-Century was a popular time for the learning or playing of instruments. A number of advertisement were posted for violins, German flutes, fifes and other instruments. German flutes are particularly popular. During the 17th Century the largest population demographic was Dutch, then Germanic people. New York takes in German immigrants on a regular basis possibly due to their ease of integration (as compared to assimilation) into a colony with a preexisting Central European culture. Below are some examples of advertisements from 1749 to 1775. 

Daniel & Philip Pelton, Drums Made and sold by Phillip Pelton, upper end of Queen-street, and by Daniel Pelton, in Chappel street, now called Beekman street, equal to any that have been imported for sound or beauty. As said Persons have great variety on hand any gentlemen may be served at the shortest notice, and on the most reasonable terms. The purchaser may depend upon having their Drums tun'd to sound well.—The New-York Journal or the General Advertiser, October 5, 1775.

John Sheiuble....N.B. He has now ready for sale, one neat chamber organ, one hammer spinnet, one common spinnet.—The New-York Gazette and the Weekly Mercury, October 10, 1774. F

Robert Horne, Musical Instrument-Maker, from London, on Golden-Hill, near Burling's Slip, Makes and repairs musical instruments, viz. Violins, tennors, violon-cellos, guittars, kitts, aeolus harps, spinnets, and spinnets jacks, violin bows, tail-pieces, pins, bridges; bows hair'd, and the best Roman Strings, &c. N.B. Country stores supply'd on the shortest notice.—The New-York Gazette and the Weekly Mercury, January 6, 1772.

David Wolhaupter, Takes this method to inform his friends and customers, that he has removed from the place he formerly lived, to the house where Mr. Muller, leather breeches maker, formerly lived, nearly opposite the Flattenbarrack-Hill, in the Broadway; where he makes and mends all sorts of musical instruments, such as basoons, German flutes, Common do. hautboys, clarinets, fifes, bagpipes, &c. also makes and mends all sorts of mathematical instruments, and all sorts of tuning work done by said Wolhaupter. Any gentlemen that will please to favour him with their employ, may depend upon being served at the cheapest rate, by their humble servant.—The New-York Gazette and the Weekly Mercury, June 18, 1770.

Simeon Coley.—Just imported in the ships Edward and Hope, from London, and to be sold cheap by Simeon Coley, Silver-smith, near the Merchant's Coffee house; A Large assortment of jewellery, diamond, garnet, and other rings; the neatest paste & stone buckels, garnet and paste necklaces, ear rings, egrets and solatiers, ditto neat etwe cases, silver-handle knives and forks in cases, ivory ditto, neat small swords, and cutteau de chase, and sword belts, great variety of pocket books for gentlemen and ladies, silver and other watches, ditto chains, neat clocks in mahogany cases, best gilt and other buckels, masons broaches and jewels, gold buttons and seals, silver ditto, neat tortise-shell snuff-boxes and smelling bottles, plated bits, and stirrups, best violins, german and common flutes, fifes, aeolus harps, hand organs, and a variety of other articles.—The New-York Mercury, October 5, 1767. 

Charles Shipman, Ivory and Hardwood Turner, lately from England: Takes this Method to acquaint all ladies, gentlemen, &c. that having served a regular apprenticeship to a very considerable Turning Manufactory in Birmingham; he purposes carrying on that business here, in all the various undermentioned articles;... Cruet frames repair'd and German flutes tip'd in the neatest manner, oval picture frames, and sundry other articles too tedious to mention.—The New-York Journal or the General Advertiser, August 6, 1767.

Robert Horne, Musical Instrument-Maker, from London, at Mr. Francis Cooley's, on Golden-Hill; Makes and repairs Violins, bass viols, tenor viols, Æolius harps, gauiters, German flutes, Kitts, violin bows, &c. in the neatest and compleatest manner. All orders punctually obey'd, with the quickest dispatch;: The favour of Gentlemen and Ladies shall be duly honour'd with their Commands. N.B. Merchants may be supplied with any of the above, cheaper than in London on proper notice given.—The New-York Mercury, September 14, 1767. 

Jacob Trippell, Musical Instrument Maker from London, at the House of Mr. John Ent, Watchmaker, opposite to, on the West Side of the Old Slip Market, a few Doors below Duyckinck's Corner, makes and repairs all sorts of Violins, Base and Tenor Viols; English and Spanish Guitters, Loutens, Mentelines, Madores, and Welsh Harps, at reasonable Rates, as neat as in Europe, Having work'd at the Business Nine Years, with the best Hands in London, since I left Germany; I shall Endeavour to Give Satisfaction to those Ladies and Gentlemen, that shall favour me with their Custom.—The New-York Gazette, August 24, 1767.

Gottlieb Wolhaupter, living at the Sign of the Musical Instrument-Maker, opposite Mr. Adam Vanderberg's has just imported from London, a Choice Parcel of the best English Box-wood; Where he continues to make and mend, all Sorts of Musical Instruments, such as German Flutes, Hautboys [Oboes], Clareonets, Flageolets [  'fipple' flute] , Bassoons, Fifes, and also Silver Tea-Pot Handles.—The New-York Gazette, November 16, 1761. 

Mathematical Instrument Maker.—The late invented and most curious Instrument call'd an Octant, for taking the Latitude or other Altitudes at Sea, with all other Mathematical Instruments for Sea or Land, compleatly made by Anthony Lamb in New-York: where all Persons may be supply'd with German Flutes, and sundry other small Works in Wood, Ivory, or Brass, and Books of Navigation; and a proper Direction given with every Instrument. Ready Money for curious hard Wood, Ivory, Tortois-Shell, and old Brass.—The New-York Gazette Revived in the Weekly Post-Boy, January 23, 1749.

The 17th Century: Transverse Flutes, Recorders, Fiddles, Drums, Trumpets and Bells:

As mentioned in a previous post one can purchase up to "30 knots of fiddle strings" on Long Island in 1691.  Later, the New York  governor (1720-1728) William Burnet has a "large Violin or Tenor Fidle" in his inventory. Tenor violins or tenor fiddles, are what English called the viola. Flutes also make an appearance at the turn of the century. 

The following was written in the inventory for Jan Cock.

Est. 1699-1701 based on preceding and post wills and inventories. 

Inventory of the state left by Jan Cock, a young man who by the bursting of a cannon in their majesties fort at Albany was killed on the 9th of February 16th, when the French destroyed Schenectady, made by Albert 'Ryckman' and Jan Lansing, aldermen of the city of Albany.  

Inventory of Jan and Widow Katelyntie Cock
2 transverse flutes 

1664 - Beverwijk (Albany) 

Inventory of Jan Gerritsen van Macken a farmer and sometimes collector of liquor taxes 

20 children hats, both girls and boys hats
some "hansioos" jewelry
10 wooden recorders

It seems that New Yorkers enjoyed banging on things as part of their New Years celebrations. Stuyvasent was quick to make it illegal to shoot guns randomly into the air but also: 

"Therefore, in order to prevent such in the future the director general and council expressly forbid henceforth shooting and planting of May poles on New Year and May days within this province of New Netherland; also, any noise making with drums or dispensing of any wine, ....and this only to prevent further accidents and trouble, for a fine of 12 guilders for the first time, doubled for the second time and arbitrary punishment for the third time;...Dated the end of December 1655, and renewed the 30th of December 1658." - Laws and Write of Appeals, 1647 - 1663. 

Also in the Laws and Write of Appeals:

"The director general, Petrus Stuyvesant, as captain of his company, observing that the last issued order, dated 7 October 1655, concerning the appearance before the colors at the beat of the drum, and the posting of and remaining on guard, is not observed and obeyed by the superior and inferior officers as it ought to be, and as is customary in all garrisons; therefore, notifies and commands all officers and soldiers of his com many:..." 

In 1648, Both Pieter Leendersz and Albert Pieterson were "Trumpeters" living in New Netherland. Plus Hendrick Jansen Sluyter, was a drummer, in 1654. The New Netherland merchants Mordakey and Captain "Beauline" made sure even babies and toddlers got in on the fun. They acquired items from the Caribbean and then shipped them north. These are the same two merchants Mordakey and Captain "Beauline" who purchased and sold the Venetian pearls. While the harps are not meant for children, the bells are. Below is an excerpt. 

Account left by Mr. Josua and Mordakey Emriques, 1st January 1656 

4 gross of rattles are 48 dozen that cost me a 200 lb sack of sugar per gross. That comes to a 17 lb. sack of sugar per dozen. 

Cont. Summary         October 28th 1656,                           April 23rd 1659

In Curacao                Captain "Beauline" Receives:           Sold since receipt:              

               ---                        20 dozen and 11 Jews harps        12 dozen and 11 at 8 st[ivers] a dozen

800 Rattles                19 dozen copper bells                      19 dozen at 8 st. a dozen

Rucksack and Knapsack - 1530 - 1755

1651 Probate Inventory, Manhattan, a brewer, een "reyssackie" [a rucksack] 

The rucksack and knapsack are items that can easily be traced back to the 1530s and were used throughout the 1600s and 1700s. The rucksack is often seen on people when carried on their backs as a cross body bag. Wheres, knapsacks are smaller and carried slung over the shoulder or hanging from a stick vagabond style. The two bags form a set used by travelers; though sometimes I get the impression that they are one and the same.

Below: Cropping of a traveler visiting a "The Doctor's surgery", Attributed to Michiel van Musscher (Rotterdam 1645-1705 Amsterdam)

In Inventories:

For reenactors this is a very practical and useful item, which can be worn by men, women and children. It also allows you to keep your arms free during events, while keeping anything you deme too valuable to leave behind in a tent with you at all times but on your back. Below are references to the rucksack. I don't have a knapsack in the inventories from the 1640s-1790s.

New Netherland Probate Inventories:

1651, Manhattan, a brewer, een "reyssackie" (a rucksack)
1664, Wiltwijk [Kingston, NY], a farmer, a rucksack

Thanks to Mr. Oovenmeester Richard, a 17th Century reenactor, who found the first photo of a rucksack for me; it also lead me to find a few others. The black bag below is an extant from the 17th Century and is located at the Geheugenvan Nederland Museum Link. And another photo Here and Here ... and one more Here.

FYI, if you type in "draagzak" or "voorraadzak" you get the photos linked above and baby carriers.

Making a Connection:

After seeing a number of these rucksacks in paintings and images I got it in my head that this would be a handy bag to take with me to the park, when visiting historic sites, and simply to enjoy a connection with the people who made the journey across the Atlantic. I managed to find a modern maker of these bags and thought I would share. I don't get a referral fee, instead my goal is to supply my readers with links to well made items produced by small shops just like they would have 300 years ago.

Check out Chris Thomas's 17th Century linen canvas and (pictured below) a golden goatskin rucksack which are "made to order" items, you get to pick what your rucksack is made of. Chris can be contacted through email: christophus@aol.com or through Facebook at Christophus Leatherwork & Trading. His Facebook page is a tour through time, with many images of items Chris is working on for special orders and even museums.

Plus, this is really awesome 17th century water bottle ! Here. by Graham Webb.  Image woman with water bottle here.


Historical References:

Any reenactor or historic site whether in England, Europe or America knows that primary sources count when picking out what to use or display. Here are documents that mention these items from 1755 back to 1530 and give clues on how they are used.

1755 - "...the knight and squire therefore, dismounting, and leaving the ass and Rozinante at pleasure to regale themselves with the rich pasture, emptied their knapsack, and without any ceremony, attacked the contents, which they ate together like good friends..." - The History and Adventures of the Renowned Don Quixote, Volume 1, 1755

1716 - "...On the other hand the mis-spelling of English words such as " consort " for "concert," "snapsack" for "knapsack," "rabbet" for "rabbit," "teint" for " tint ...and the use of "my Lord" for "Sire" or "Signeur", give the idea that the translation published by Tonson has been made not by an Englihsman but by a Foreigner." - Book: Gil Blas, By Alain Rene Le Sage, 1716.

1708 - "Havresac, f.m. Bifsac de fantassin. Een Soldaat knapzak." (Also Besace, Bifsac. Bedelzak, knapzak) - Groot Fransch en Nederduits woordenboek, 1708 

1708 - "Havresac, f.m. Bif-bag of infantryman. A Soldier's Knapsack." (Begging bag, also a knapsack) - Groot Fransch en Nederduits woordenboek, 1708 

1688 - "I heard Sir Thomas Fairfax relate of a Souldjer in Ireland, who having got his Passport to go for England, as he past through a Wood with his Knapsack upon his Back, being weary, he fate down under a Tree, where he open'd his Knapsack, and fell to some Victuals he had; ..." - Book: "Epistolæ Ho-Elianæ: Familiar Letters, Domestic and Forren. Divided Into Four Books, Partly Historical, Political, Philosophical, Upon Emergent Occasions", 1688

1530 - "...Gott für einen narren/der unnötige stifte uns ordnet/und nicht wuste/ was er uns stifften sollen odder als were er ein knapsack / der faule untuchtige wahr umbhertruge und unsanböte /..." - "Vermanung zum Sacrament des leibs und bluts unsers Herrn" by Martin Luther 1530

Translation:
1530 - "...God for a fool / useless pen arranges us / and not wust / what he should stifften us or as if he were a knapsack / lazy naughty true umbhertruge and unsanböte / ..." - "Vermanung zum Sacrament des leibs und bluts unsers Herrn" by Martin Luther 1530.


This last one, 1530, was a bit too hard for me to translate correctly. But we get the idea that everybody liked knapsacks and they had one particular purpose, to carry food. This is compared to a rucksack which was used for travel.

Are Pirate Gowns Real ?

We need not recreate the past to understand it but only to appreciate the facts. In our interpretation we can strive to get it exacting to a specific time, however, it is just as important to understand how things change from moment to moment. In particular how often ideas tend to overlap, with transitions never truly instantaneous, at least with New York. It is not unusual for historians to skirt around the New York issue, it is complicated with many tremulous years. Though, as we continue to explore we find that while politics and sovereigns were blown through like tissues, the culture of the colony was ever lasting. Founded with Dutch civil liberties and Cannon law and their obsession with all things worldly and unbridled curiosity; they, let fantasy become reality. They lived in a world where pirate gowns are real.

They turn up in both Dutch New Netherland and British New York. Except, they are not historically called pirate or cavalier dresses. On the Continent and in early American inventories this type of gown is called a Tabbaard. Common spellings: Tabbaard, Tabbard, Tabbart, Tabbert, Tabb...etc. The key to a good replica of a tabbaard - as compared to the costumes in movies - is a snug fitted bodice that compresses the bust not the waist and looks like it is mounted on pasteboard; with a skirt with many tiny pleats. The best part is... they are fair game for reenactors and historic sites.

The tabbaard is one of those dresses that is representative of people from a wide range of economic backgrounds. Whether your were a farmer in the town of Beverwijk - now the City of Albany, NY - the wife of a small town doctor on the Hudson River... or even the Electress of the Holy Roman Empire in Europe; the tabbaard was a gown accessible to people of various classes. It is reflective of the landscape these early Americans lived; where, while not royals, with industry and good provenance one could have a splendid gown of silk for weddings and holiday.

Below a cropped image: Magdalene Sibylle of Prussia (31 December 1586 – 12 February 1659) was an Electress of Saxony as the spouse of John George I, Elector of Saxony. i.0043, Photo from the Rüstkammer/SKD für die Ausstellung „Der frühe Vermeer“ Gemäldegalerie Dresden, 2010

History:

Deciphering fashions in the 17th century requires following a garment back to its place of origin. Then one can see it mature, spread and evolve into other styles. The Tabbaard got its start in Italy - likely Venetian -  and is seen there by the third quarter of the 16th Century (about 1580s). The tabbaard, however, gets picked up by various nations though in differing styles. For France, it will morph from the Italian style to a bodice with a front sloping "swan" waist at the turn of the century. Then to a high-wider waist in the 1630s as can be seen with Magdalene Sibylle of Prussia gown pictured above; and a long more up-right torso for the rest of the century. The Images below are all Central European extant tabbaards with known owners. Note the waist line drops from the left to the right as the century moves forward.

Below cropped images: Left (Dated to 1635-1645) and Center (Possibly 1645) gowns once owned by Magdalene Sibylle of Prussia (31 December 1586 – 12 February 1659), Right tabbaard bodice in the Hessisches Landesmuseum Darmstadt Collection 1660.

The first two bodices are on display and are part of a show being held at the Dresden Rüstkammer museum in Germany. See link to the museum's site Scroll down to see VIDEO.

The Tabbaard in Holland:

The tabbaard is defined by Marieke de Winkel in her book Fashion and Fancy: Dress and the Meaning in Rembrandt's Paintings. It is a gown made up of a stiffen bodice that is laced up the back, it is not boned, but has a matching skirt. A petticoat is worn under the skirt. Fashion and Fancy includes a number of inventories and explanation of men and women's garments and accessories based on de Winkel's graduate thesis and an impressive number of primary sources.

In one of the inventories included in the book is that of a wealthy couple Captain Maerten Pietersez Dacey and his Widow Oopjen Coppit, November 1659. The inventory is massive and includes the following gowns:

In the bottom wardrobe

a plush tabbert of Oopjen Coppit
a "toers" tabbert of the same
a serge tabbert of the same

a red under pettcoat with passements
a green satin skirt of the same
a violet satin shirt of the same
an ash gray satin skirt
a green daily skirt
a small red under-petticoat
a white birds-eye skirt [petticoat]

When looking at Coppit's inventory we see a plush, "toers" and serge "tabbert". The plush is a velvet, the "toers" is a corded silk made in Belgium or Holland ( likely Leiden) woven in the Ottoman Empire fashion with blend of cashmere and silk; but sometimes with just silk. It is a slightly larger grain than modern silk fallie. (We will discuss corded silks in a later post.)


New Netherland and New York:

As we can see, both royal and wealthy merchant women of Europe are wearing the tabbaard. The images of the Electress's extant samples above were chosen in part because we know who owned them and when the she lived, with a death in 1659, making them easy to date and compare. In New Netherland and New York there is no royalty and it is not with the mega-merchants that we find three or four tabbaard per inventory; it is the growing middle class and frugal farmers that have acquired one tabbaard each. They are likely the wedding dresses that are later recycled into Holiday and special occasion wear. These wardrobes have another important outfit called the vlieger, which are more reserved in appearance and likely what was used for Sunday best. Though, due to the late date of these wardrobes it is also possible that these tabbaards were acquire to take the place of their vlieger even for Sunday best.

In an inventory from 1664, we see a fashionable couple with three little children sporting both vintage and the latest trends from Europe. They weren't living in  London, or Amsterdam or Paris, but in a little town called Wildwijk on the Hudson River. Looking at the 1665 inventory of Rachel de la Montagne (d. 1664) and Gysbert van Imbroch (d. 1665), we are seeing the inventory of doctor from a small town. Prior to arriving in Wildwijk, Gysbert supplemented is income by winning the bid to perform the duties of selling testaments and bibles for two years in Manhattan. It seems that selling books becomes a on-going side job, as his inventory taken in Wiltwijk could fill a town library. It included a variety of books on literature, gardening, medical and school books for children. It is not unusual for people to pick up side jobs to make some extra income. Unfortunately, they died young leaving a 5, 3, and 1 year old; the children of which went to live with family. Interestingly, not only have their children and inventory survive them but so has their stone house which can be visited in the old section of what is today called Kingston, New York. Also, we can see that while Imbroch was Dutch, de la Montagne was French Huguenot.

In de la Montagne's wardrobe is a "tabbaard" (spelled in her inventory as "Tabbard") that could be worn with one of her three petticoats and a number of white or black hoods, two fans, handkerchiefs both round and square and even two cosmetics. She also had two cosmetics; one red and one black. Plus a few night time forehead bands that would be infused with oils intending to reduce the likelihood of wrinkles. The rest of her inventory is made up of jackets.

1665 inventory of Rachel de la Montagne (d. 1664) & Gysbert van Imbroch (d. 1665), Wiltwijk, NN

A black silk gross grain "Tabbert" with "sarcenet" under (a type of soft lining)
A colored gross grain petticoat with green lining
A colored changeable [silk] petticoat with green lining
A red scarlet petticoat


Inventories in New Netherland and New York tend to point out when a garment is scarlet, red, purple and black. This is in part due to the high cost of these dyes combined with the labor. When the item is simply stated to be "colored" the only option - in an effort to guess the color - is to note the other colors that were mentioned and know it was not one of those. Alternatively, if there is something notable for instance "changeable" silk or if it is lined the recorder will point this out. In the original translation of this inventory from the 1900s, the "A colored changeable petticoat with green lining" was originally translated as "reversible", but it is actually "changeable". Research such as that done by De Winkel in her book Fashion and Fancy has traced many of the 17th Century clothing terms for us.

The Tabbaard comes on the scene in an early form for the wealthy of Continental Europe in the late 1500s, remains a gown of choice throughout this time, then starts to spread from nobility and large merchants to the burghers (small traders) and crafts people by the 1650s. Rachael and Gysbert were married in 1657, and it is possible she brought this gown with her from her hometown of Albany, NY.  Interestingly, both Rachael's tabbaard in New Netherland and Oopjen's tabbaard mentioned in the 1659 Holland inventory previously are both made of corded silk, or a corded cashmere-silk blend.

By the 1660s, the Tabbaard was accessible to well off farmers also. A second tabbaard is in a 1664 inventory from Fort Orange near Albany, the wardrobe of which had both vintage and modern clothing including; "1 tabbaard bodice [stored] in a piece of white cloth". It is possible that this bodice was a gross grain also as many other items including hoods and aprons were also made of gross grain, but may or may not be purse silk.

Below is a Tabbaart gown with matching bodice and skirt plus an under petticoat. This particular tabbaard would be very similar to the ones worn in the two 1660s inventories above. Also, over skirt were often sewn to the tabbaard.

Below self portrait, Zelfportret van Gesina, driekwart naar rechts, Gesina ter Borch, Joost Hermans Roldanus, 1661.

Here you can see both a family in formal tabbaard and the servants in more casual but also lovely tabbaard. Painting by Gillis van Tilborgh born 1625 Link.

Through each of these eras, the sleeves change to follow current trends while retaining the general silhouette, plus the bodice and the front princes seams on the torso. We can see the sleeve becoming longer. Many tabbaard in jacket form have attached sleeves whereas, the bodice versions or summer versions have attachable sleeves. Also, in the 1640s to 60s, it is a formal gown with matching bodice and skirt with under petticoat, it becomes more relaxed as a semi-formal and even casual wear in the 1660s and 70s.

By the third quarter (1670s), servants and laborers up-date their stays (a corset like garment) and jackets to look more like the tabbaard. The working class stays and jackets take on the princes-like seams and shape of the Tabbaard bodice but may or may not keep the sleeves.  See Dordrechts Museum Link.  for the image below. But simultaneously, for wealthier people the gown becomes formal again.

The 1664 Wiltwijk and Fort Orange inventories were not the only lists with a Tabbaard. Another can be found in the 1690s. A rather nice one appears in Lysbett van Eps's inventory who was a small trader-merchant; you may remember her as being the Albany shop keeper selling large qualities of Indigenous Leggings for adults and children.

Van Eps may have acquired her tabbaard when she made a trip to Amsterdam in the 1670s to purchase fabric for traded. While the one in the 1690s inventory has an unknown color it came with a detached skirt with both being made of fine "toers" corded silk. This is a fine grain fabric that has survived the centuries due to the quality. It is a silk that wares well, and from which modern bridal gown are be made. This is likely the Fort Orange tabbaard coming back into the formal-ware category again.


Re-Cap: 

1659 Holland, Marchant:  a plush tabbert, a "toers" tabbert, a serge tabbert

1664 Fort Orange, Farmer:  1 tabbaard bodice [stored] in a piece of white cloth

1664/65 Wiltwijk, Doctor's wife, book seller:  A black silk gross grain "Tabbert" w/ sarcenet lining

1693 Fort Orange, Shop keeper:  1 ditto [toers] "tabbaart" "cijt"


One of the nice things about these examples, is that it leaves the door open to women from different economic backgrounds as having access to this type of gown. It is something that can be worn formally or semi-formal, in matching top and bottom or mixed and match. Interestingly, this garment continued to be used under English sovereignty. It is possible that the large merchants of the colony had more than one tabbaard, whereas we can see that famers, shop keepers, and professional's wives may of had only one.

The tabbaard will continue to live on from the 17th Century and into the 18th Century. Below Left to Right is a 1659, 1690 and then 1745 painting. The tabbaard is also called a camisole in German and is part of the court costume throughout this time frame. While the tabbaard will come in and out of fashion in France and England, it had become part of the wardrobe for Central Europe since the 1630s.

Below Image Cropping Left to Right: Left Jeanne Parmentier by Bartholomeus van der Helst, 1656 ,  LINK. , Center Eleonore Magdalene von Pfalz-Neuburg LINK. , Right Madame Henriette (Louis XV's daughter) playing the Viola da Gamba in Court dress by Jean-Marc Nattier (1685- 1766) LINK. 

The tabbaard is not the only formal outfit that appears in inventories, however, it is the most fanciful or princes like. As we continue to explore we will see formal-ware was as important to the wardrobe as exotic and worldly robes from the east.

Indigenous Leggings for Men, Women and Children

From early in the 17th century, Europeans began adopting and appropriating indigenous clothing in the middle colonies. There is also evidence of indigenous clothing in New England, Delaware, and elsewhere. One of the most common items of the 17th century are indigenous bags, that are large enough to hold a number of strung trade beads called "sea-wan". (Some people use "wampum" but New York inventories use "sea-wan", "trade beads" or "Indian beads".) Coats, shoes, trade beads, and other items are also found for adult and children in both probate and shop inventories. During the second half of the century indigenous leggings become widely popular. There are possibly a few reasons for this including; protection while walking through brush or working but also for warmth. While it is difficult to determine whether certain garments were adopted or appropriated, we can look at where they are found in primary sources. There is a rather large number of indigenous clothing in inventories, too many for one post, here we will explore primary sources for the 133 pairs of leggings found in probate and store inventories due to their high frequency in the 17th Century. 

"They [the "Wilde"] make their stockings and shoes of deer skins or elk's hide, and some have shoes made of corn-husks, of which they also make sacks." - Narratives of New Netherland 

Leggings came in a variety of colors and designs before and after Europeans arrived. The earliest depictions of indigenous persons tend to be people from warmer climates and without leggings. However, later depictions of Northern Indigenous persons shows them with and without leggings. The Narratives of New Netherland was a 17th century publication written by Adrian van der Donk who's occupation stationed him in the Hudson and Mohawk region, so it may be used as a primary source guide. Prior to European settlement, leggings were made of durable leathers and this continued in the 17th century. As of now, further research is needed to determine when fabric leggings were developed. By the 18th century indigenous artist and clothing makers adopted or appropriated the use of woven fabrics into their work. Leggings tended to come in two primary heights/lengths; one that just came to the knee being gartered at the knee and ankle, and the second is shaped more like chaps and having a strap at the side that ties to a waist belt. Both appear in imagery of Native Americans in the northeastern and middle colonials. 

Below are chap style leggings in the mid-18th century: Karonghyontye (Captain David Hill) is a Mohawk from the region near Albany, NY and who is pictured in the rear of painting. Colonial Guy Johnson who is in front was in charge of relations with the indigenous populations, National Gallery of Art, Link. Interestingly, the colonial in front is wearing leggings over his breeches but also moccasins. Yet, Karonghyontye is wearing the leggings on bare legs, but has healed European-British shoes on. This style of legging had a side-strap that tied to a belt at the waist. Karonghyontye's leggings also have a red vertical stripe on the exterior of the garment. The leggings worn by Colonial Johnson are likely made of fabric rather than leather. 

A number of the persons that immigrate to New Netherland and later New York are from regions in Europe that have a history of wearing lower and upper stockings, or layering breeches over long hose without a foot. Women too in some regions also wore petticoats over long hose without a foot. It is possible that the adoption of indigenous leggings by the European population was made easier due to the predisposition to similar garments. Below is an inventory from Albany where many mohawk people lived. It is possible that they came in the chap style as shown in the painting above, but the style is not noted in the inventories. Note the 32 pairs of red indigenous stockings. These may of been dyed leather or imported fabric. Also, "stockings" is historically correct, even though there was not a foot in them. But today we call them leggings. 

Also, the Dutch use two terms for Native people one is "barbaar" or barbarian the other is "wilde". In court and other primary sources such as in inventories we tend to see "wilde", which literally means "wild, natural" in 17th century Dutch. The Dutch also use the term "babaar", but as in the 1640s Governor Kieft's writings suggest it is not the most common term and used most often when angry or scared. We don't really have a dirrect translation for wilde other than maybe "nature's people" or "natural people" and it doesn't translate to "Indian" in the same sense. For reenactors, this terminology should be use respective of the region. Because as is evident in the 1693 inventory below, the term "wilde" is still being used in Albany 20 years after English sovereignty was granted in 1674. Whereas, "Indian" or "Savage" is used in NYC and Long Island during English sovereignty. 


In 1693, the following items were for sale in a Lysbett van Eps's store in Albany, New York taken during the English era; 

29 pair wilde “coussen”                                   29 pair wilde stockings

24 pair “jougen” ditto “coussen”,                     24 pair youth ditto [wilde] stockings

9 'pair' 'Fijne' 'roode' vrouw do.                       9 pair fine red woman do [stockings]

32 pair wilde “coussen” “roode” & “t.”             32 pair wilde stockings red and 't.' 

The 85 (possibly 94) pairs of indigenous leggings in van Eps's inventory taken in Albany, NY are likely made by the indigenous women and traded for other goods in van Eps's shop. Early court records show Indigenous people purchasing "cakes" (cookies?) with van Eps present and other goods. Albany had four indigenous villages or "castles" close by. With healthy trade moving back and forth between New York and Canada. The European settlers had a strong relationship with the local Mohawk population despite many of the Europeans often feeling unsure on how to "read" their relationship; the Mohawks came to their rescue and they vis versa in the 1690s when Canada invaded New York.

In 1675, and 1697 two different small merchants in New York City had "three pr. of Indian trading stockings at 00:06:00" and "30 pair Indians "Stockins” 03:00:00, 5 pair “wirsted” “Stockins” 01:05:00" respectively for sale in their shops. A shop out in Flushing Long Island in a 1680 inventory shows the couple had "fourteen “paire” of Indian Stockings" for sale in their shop, and then in with the tools another “one 'paire' of Indian Stock & 'breeches'". This last listing also mentions in the inventory, an "Indian “Mann” by name Phillip". We get a glimpse at how these stockings were being used, as the 1680 inventory states that 14 pairs were for sale in the shop, whereas, one lone pair were with tools. Many of the 1680 inventory's indigenous items were possibly made by Mr. Philip, who was a person of Indigenous heritage.  

Below is an example of leggings that were tied with a garter at the knee rather than a strap from the legging to a belt. Link.

Here are extent 18th century gartered at the knee leggings from the St. Lawrence area which are made of leather. And check out the amazing blog who posted about these and other authentic art made by people of indigenous heritage, Historic Iroquois and Wabanaki Beadwork, Beautiful !

Additionally, many teenagers in New York entered apprenticeships at about 12-16 years old. This may be why there are a number of youth stockings as it would protect their lower legs while learning carpentry and other trades. Had the 1693 Albany leggings for young persons been for small children it would of read for babies or "kinder" children rather than youths. 


Example of Ottawa persons from just the other side of the boarder in Canada, Link.

Colonial Labeling of Native Americans

One of the terms that seems to be rather difficult to translate into English is "wilde". This is because in part the Dutch use the term wilde for things, plants, animals and Native Americans. For the English the term "wild" is used for things and animals; while the word savage if reserved for indigenous people. The Dutch use the term wilde for only Native Americans but not Indigenous Persons from other nations (See the translation problem?). The English use savage as a general term for Indigenous Persons. But for all the Game of Thrones fans out there, you'll notice a trend where the term wilde is use in a similar way as "wild-ling" or person of nature or outside of urban European-cultural norms but with their own social-organizational patterns and laws. This recognition of separate cultural, legal system and sovereignty seems to be what separates the terms "wilde" and "savage". I don't know why the 17th Century Dutch choose this term, but lets look at the primary sources.

From the time of the first permanent European settlement in 1618 in Albany, New York to the seizure of Manhattan by the English in 1664 and then final transfer of sovereign control to the British in 1674, legal records were kept in Dutch. After 1674, all legal documents were mandated to be kept in English; many documents such as inventories, wills, letters and others continue to be kept in Dutch, and sometimes German and French. While I am not a language scholar, we can use primary sources to determine the meaning of labels and how they were applied to different people and groups. Translation dictionaries can often give us clues in how and when labels are utilized. Terms such as wilde, indian/indean, Japon and Turk are all terms that appear in 17th century books, letters, legal records and inventories. 

Bear with me, we are going to cover a topic that can be political. I ask that we look at it so that we can understand what 17th century people specific to New Netherland and New York were trying to state, explain or record in early documents.  

The savage pea plants of America ! : 
The term "wilde" may seem like an easy translation but it is not accurate due to the Dutch not using the word wilde in the same way English use savage, though there is consistency with the French and German. For instance, the Dutch would say "wild beast" which in English one could say "wild beast" or "savage beats". But the Dutch also use "wilde" for "wilde apple blossoms" and "wilde pea plants of America". Whereas, in English we don't say, "savage apple blossoms" or the "savage pea plants of America". (What a crazy movie that would be.) The term "wilde" for the Dutch is not interpreted as savage; "wilde" is meant to be interpreted as simply existing outside of the urban and formal farming culture, or "natural, in nature, of nature". 


Terminology: In the 1708 Groot Fransch en Nederduits woordenboek it states the following: 
"Sauvage", adj. Feroce, qui n'est point apprivoisé. Wildt, wreedt, ongetemt. 
Bete Sauvage. Een wildt beest. [ wild Beast ]
Pommier sauvage. Een wildt appelboom. [ wild apple bloom ]
Humeur Sauvage. Een mufien aart, een wildt inborst. [ a wild mood ]

This particular label is needed for interpreting court records such as the following. Note that the terms "natural" or "wilde" female and "black" female are used rather than "savage/sauvage", "Indian", "barbarous" or a variation on the N-word. (Side Note: This is not to say the N-word does not turn up regularly, it does appear often in different forms; but it is important for it to have its own post with attached primary sources.)   


New Netherland Council Minutes 1638 - 1649, page 37: 
Ulrich lupoldt fiscael....vs. Nicolaes Coorn Sargant....Bylen die he ende de soldaten waren Gedaen om hout te hacken, aende "wilden" voor zijn particulier te verruilen ende bevers tegens Sijn gedaenen eet in mijn coy heeft gehadt. ... Van gelijken tot verscheiden maelen "wildinnen"  [wilde females] ende Swartinennen [Black females] geheele nachten by hem gedachte hebben geslapen, in mijn Bet, tor presentie van alle de Soldaten." Page 37 Link.

"Ulrich Iupoldt fiscal vs. Nicolas Coorn Sargant... who by reason of his office was in duty bound to set a good moral example to his soldiers, has notwithstanding has been guilty of bartering with the wilde for private gain, the axes which were given him and the soldiers to cut wood and contrary to his oath has hidden the beavers in his bunk. ... Likewise, the defendant has at divers times had wilde females and black [swart=black] females sleep entire nights with him in his bed, in the presence of all the soldiers." 

The below is a cropping of the 20th century original transcript (not original document from 1638) of the New Netherland Council Minutes 1638 - 1649, page 37 section 27. These documents are available for free on the New Netherland Institute's website. 

Whereas, An Universal Etymological English Dictionary of 1731 states the following as the whole definition of "savage". The words savage and wild are separated. English Dictionary Link. 

Savage, wild barbarous people who keep no fix'd habitation, have no religion, law or policy. 


Here we get continuity, both colonial English and the Dutch use Barbarous (Dutch: Barbaar) for persons that appear to be a threat (though not to refer to themselves). When the Dutch wished to use a word closer to the English meaning of "savage" they used "barbarous", a barbarous people and may be associated with a person who purchases or drinks alcohol. This term has appeared occasionally in documents. 

On October 1656 Willem Hoffmeyr from Brazil and living in Fort Orange, was being accused of selling beer to "wilde-indian" in the opening statement, with a more detailed account of "on the 22d, 23d, and 24th of July last past, with five half barrels of good and small beer mixed together, sailed up the  river and sold and peddled the beer among the "wilde-barbar". The acusasaions continue with a reduction in the severity of "wilde-indian" and "wilde-babar" to "wilde" and the plural "wilden". - Fort Orange Council Minutes page 253 for the translated and also the original document from 1656 below. See the yellow underlines. Note that wilde is being used as the noun and Indian or barbarian as a descriptor. There are other nouns that are used in the same way such as Laken (a fulled twill woolen) vs. Serge Laken (a twilled woolen that is not fulled). The New Netherland Dutch tend to quantify many things in documents, so modifying the word wilde to meet the prosecutor's needs is not surprising. 

The term Indian does not readily apply either, and is use rarely in Dutch and even German documents. This may be due to the Dutch being regularly exposed to products from and writings about the nation of India. Roughly 2/3rds of men and 1/3 of women in the Netherlands were literate. This too may of helped, as did the regular education of both boys and girls in lower schools. 

In the 1655 Dutch book, Korte historian, ends jouraels aenteyckeninge, van verscheyden voyages in de vier deepen des wereldts-roune... the term "Indianen" is used to refer to the people of India, and rarely to the people of North America. The author having traveled to both regions and used separate terms to describe the people respectively.  Likewise, we see this in inventories; Wilde (Native people), Indian/Indean (India), Japon (Japan) and Turks (Turkish). All these terms are use in inventories in America often in the same inventory to delineate different items and their respective place of origin and value. 



Wilde, a People Recognized as a Nation: 
One interesting practice was international treaties. The Dutch enter into treaties for trade and peace with various indigenous tribes. Not only did the Dutch recognize that the Native Americans were legally able to enter into and sign contracts, they were treated as a separate nation and could not be punished under Dutch laws. A Native American could bare witness in a court cases against a European on trial, but could not be prosecuted themselves. However, any incident performed by an Indigenous Person would be reported to the person's tribal leaders. One governor Keift even tried to tax Indigenous person, but this did not comply with general Dutch legal structures of separate nations under treaties. This recognition of separate people as citizens under their respective nations and subject to separate sets of laws also distinguishes the term "wilde" from savage. This acceptance tends to carry over to the English occupation from 1664 to their sovereign control in 1667, and until the second granting of sovereignty in 1674. As a whole, Both the Dutch and English seem to treat Native Americans as a people with culture and subject to respective legal systems during the 17th Century. More study is needed to determine when the turning point is but the purchasing of property from Native Americans continues though the whole of the 17th century, with Indigenous persons signing contracts and deeds at least until the year 1700. 


Continued Use: 
Inventories also shed light on another phenomena, the term wilde continues to be used along side "Indian" ten, twenty and thirty years after the British were granted sovereign control. Wilde disappears from court documents in 1674, but continues in inventories and letters into the 1690s. 

Most interesting, people of Indigenous heritage are often referred to by name in Dutch and later New York era documents. Tribe names also make appearances, and the original Native American names for certain garments, material goods and other items create by indigenous persons are adopted by BOTH the Europen and British population. For instance, the term for a bag made by "wilde" is called "notassie" which is not a Dutch word but is regularly used by Europen people when referring to bags made by local Native Americans. Inventories in the Dutch from 1650 and in English from 1680s both use the term "notassie" (Dutch version) / "notase" (English version).  I don't know which of the Indigenous languages this word comes from but the Mohawk and Lenape terms for bag are "kaiarowá" / "nikaiar" and "putalas" / "xesinutay" / "menutesa" respectively. It may be that the "me-nutesa" which is a handbag or purse is our "notase", as the two "notase" are described as fitting into a travel bag. It seems that the name of the handband or purse was a Lanepe word, adopted by the Dutch and then later by the English. 

As we move forward through inventories whether under the Dutch or the English it is important to understand the different terms so to be able to appreciate the material goods in primary sources. The terms "wilde, barbarian, Indian, and savage" should be understood as accurately as possible and with understanding of the landscape it was used. 

Was this helpful in understanding term "wilde" in 17th Century Dutch New Netherland and English New York ?